The Dead Roo

Comment from fred
Time: June 21, 2007, 11:22 pm

It seems that my previous post disappeared.
It simply said:
“Great post. Thank you”

Comment from atg
Time: June 22, 2007, 5:55 am

Disregarding virtually everything I see or hear in the media (something I do a lot) my only personal experience has been a couple of visits to remote communities, once near Tennant Creek and one in Arnhem Land, and I can say that what I saw made me very sad in terms of the poverty and hopelessness that is very evident. But I have no idea what to suggest to resolve the issues I saw.

Do you have suggestions regarding what would be a better alternative than Howard’s plan? Do you have suggestions that wouldn’t need to involve government? I believe we as a society need to stop looking to governments to fix the things that need fixing because, frankly, they suck at it. If we want something fixed I reckon we’d better do it ourselves and, honestly, as much as I would gladly turn up in the NT tomorrow with my backpack and my good intentions I wouldn’t know where to start with respect to this issue.

Pingback from Fisking a leftist’s response to The Howard Plan to save indegenious children « Iain Hall
Time: June 22, 2007, 7:44 am

[…] Fisking a leftist’s response to The Howard Plan to save indegenious children June 22, 2007 at 7:43 am | In Leftism, Indigenous Issues, Fedral Election, Ethical questions, the Law, Racism, Political Correctness, Australian Politics, Multiculturalism | The left have been oh so quiet about indigenous issues of late, probably because they know that they are ,to a large extent, responsible for the desolate landscape that is indigenous Australia. But now that John Howard has made some very wide ranging reforms, with bipartisan support from Kevin Rudd I might add, The old “rights agenda and accusations of “racism” get trotted out . All quotes come from this piece at “The dead Roo” […]

Comment from Iain Hall
Time: June 22, 2007, 7:47 am

The left have been oh so quiet about indigenous issues of late, probably because they know that they are ,to a large extent, responsible for the desolate landscape that is indigenous Australia. But now that John Howard has made some very wide ranging reforms, with bipartisan support from Kevin Rudd I might add, The old “rights agenda and accusations of “racism” get trotted out . All quotes come from this piece at “The dead Roo”

Howard’s big black attack
Today, the 21st of June, will go down as a dark day in the history of black Australia. Howard has announced sweeping “reforms” in the Northern Territory, they’re being called the “national emergency response to protect aboriginal people”.
It’s to happen in the Northern Territory where there is no obstacle to government power in the form of a pesky state constitution, or pesky clauses in the federal constitution. It’s the biggest attack on black rights since the stolen generations, and it could well be the wedge that wins Howard the 2007 federal election.

Here’s the government’s media kit outlining the plan.

Other’s are covering the comparisons to the Tampa election quite well.

Now for my review… in short, I cannot find a single redeeming feature in the governments disgusting plan.

Kieran is of course all up in arms here about The rights of indigenous people but what about the rights of the children who are growing up in fear and suffering sexual and violence abuse? That is after all the reason that such measures are necessary.

The measures include … introducing widespread alcohol restrictions on Northern Territory Aboriginal land.

Alcohol and drug abuse are the side effects of government neglect, the stripping of services from communities, and the complete lack of an economic future.

But no, the federal government will instead blame the victims, aboriginal communities, and punish them by instituting prohibition. Prohibition will of course completely fail to deal with the underlying problem, not to mention it is a gross affront upon the rights and dignities of aboriginal communities.

Well I think that prohibition has a good chance of working given the isolation of many of these communities and lets be clear that the rights and dignities of the abused women and children will actually be enhanced by these measures. So as with so many of these things we have a competing rights situation. To my mind the rights of women and children trump the rights of drinkers every time.

Introducing welfare reforms to stem the flow of cash going toward substance abuse and to ensure funds meant to be for children’s welfare are used for that purpose

Food stamps. Again, an affront to dignity and human rights. Aboriginal’s will no longer has the same welfare rights as white Australians.
The purpose of a large proportion of welfare for people with children IS for the needs of those children and there are already provisions in the regulations to ensure that the monies are used for the correct purposes. Those monies are paid to parents on the basis that the children will actually be clothed and fed properly. As a Parent I cannot think of any problem with ensuring dysfunctional people are prevented from pissing their children’s futures up against a wall.

Enforcing school attendance by linking income support and family assistance payments to school attendance for all people living on Aboriginal land and providing meals for children at school at parents’ cost

A disgusting affront to the personal freedom of aboriginal people.
Sadly such things are necessary as the only way to prevent the intergenerational transmission of the disease of indolence and ignorance is to insist that this generation of children get a good functional education and the key to that is the same requirement of attendance that is expected of all other children.

Introducing compulsory health checks for all Aboriginal children to identify and treat health problems and any effects of abuse

The requirement for consent before medical treatment is considered one of the most basic human rights in the field of human health, it is the most basic statement of individual control over their own body. The federal government will abolish this, for blacks only of course.
Do you seriously expect that such consent will be withheld? Oh come on you clutch at straws here. In any case if parents are incompetent due to substance abuse the state is empowered to act in their place and give consent on behalf of such children.

Acquiring townships prescribed by the Australian Government through five year leases including payment of just terms compensation

The federal government will seize black lands. Talk about serious déjà vu, not to mention the complete denigration of communal property rights.

As part of the immediate emergency response, increasing policing levels in prescribed communities, including requesting secondments from other jurisdictions to supplement NT resources, funded by the Australian Government.

Again, not dealing with the problem, but instead blaming and punishing the victim. The government will seize the communities, and turn them into mini police states. Instead of communities of despair, we’ll have communities of fear. Anyone willing to take a bet that black deaths in custody will significantly increase within a year of the introduction of these measures?
Ah the Hyperbole of the left, such a wonderful sight in the morning. Leftists like Kieran just can not let go of the idea that indigenous society is some wonderful example of a socialist ideal. That was the impetus for the likes of Nugget Coombes and the Whitlem Government. But the evidence of the status quo shows that we don’t have a myriad of socialist utopias in remote Australia but a spectrum of Dystopias that are the shame of the nation.

Requiring intensified on ground clean up and repair of communities to make them safer and healthier by marshalling local workforces through work-for-the-dole

Great, we’ll put those black bastards to work picking up all the rubbish… Just another measure to ensure these communities are under complete federal control. Anyone wanna take odds on violent and organized black resistance to these measures?!
Take away the grog and a lot of the violence will fade away and do we not expect that every citizen should maintain his or her living spaces in a manner that is fit for human habitation? I bet that if some one in say Wodonga was to have their garden strewn with rubbish. they would be expected to clean it up . These remote communities are no different.

Improving housing and reforming community living arrangements in prescribed communities including the introduction of market based rents and normal tenancy arrangements

“Normal” tenancy arrangements. Ie, normal by white standards. Ie, forcing the standards of the white community upon the black community. Wow, we used to just call this assimiliation or the White Australia Policy. It’s also known as cultural genocide.
Hang on a minute don’t we live in AUSTRALIA? This is not South Africa circa 1970 where the standards for black and white people were different. In all other parts of Australia if a house is provided to you by the government (via the housing commissions) a tenant is expected to keep and maintain the building in a fit state. Why has it been possible for houses to be wrecked by indigenous tenants and for there to be no repercussions when they do so?

Banning the possession of X-rated pornography and introducing audits of all publicly funded computers to identify illegal material

WE WILL POLICE YOUR LIVES. Come off it, there’s not even the skerick of a rational explanation for that one.
The clear evidence of the ‘little children are sacred” report is that indigenous children as young as three are acting out behaviours that they have seen in such films because there has been insufficient parental discretion about exposing children to such things. Responible adults do NOT allow their children to watch such things until they are eighteen when the law says that they may do so.

Scrapping the permit system for common areas, road corridors and airstrips for prescribed communities on Aboriginal land, and;
Improving governance by appointing managers of all government business in prescribed communities

Yep, complete government control. No indigenous control at all. Why not just get it over with and call these “prescribed communities” missions and call in the nuns?!
Read the reports Kieran, the permit system has been instrumental in allowing so much of the violence and abuse by preventing the scrutiny of the wider community. And by creating save havens for the kiddie fiddlers and substance abusers. Strangely they don’t like the light. And the left wants to keep the world in the dark as much as they do.

“You have failed to live your life to the standards we expect. We will now live it for you.”

Howard intends to win this election by declaring war on black Australia. Let the genocide re-commence.

In this country we do not sanction suicide, certainly if some one succeeds in killing themselves they can have no punishment in law. However there are legal sanctions for assisting some one to commit suicide and lets be real here what we see in indigenous communities is not genocide it is a sort of cultural suicide, by grog, Ganga, and gasoline. No one should stand by and whine about “rights” when one person is standing on the edge of a cliff and threatening to jump off so why is it that the minions of the left want to mutter so loudly about rights when so many indigenous communities are collectively standing on a precipice? Surely inaction on this pressing problem is going to result in some thing more akin to the notion of genocide that Kieran invokes here than John Howard’s plan. Because there is no dignity in the status quo continuing for our indigenous brothers and sisters, there is only the prospect of a slow cultural and actual death.

Cross posted at Iain Hall

Comment from fred
Time: June 22, 2007, 8:22 am

Excellent post.

Pingback from Howard’s Wedge at Hoyden About Town
Time: June 22, 2007, 10:35 am

[…] Parish at Club Troppo makes some excellent points, The Dead Roo team fisk the government’s media kit release, Tim Dunlop at Blogocracy calls for a rise above […]

Comment from Kieran
Time: June 22, 2007, 11:14 am

Fred, sorry, askimet spamifies the “well done” and “excellent post” type comments for some reason.

Comment from Kieran
Time: June 22, 2007, 11:37 am

I want to offer a big “hear hear!” to this from Ken Parish.

Today is a day of shame in Australian politics. Everyone deplores the appalling incidence of violence and child sexual abuse in indigenous communities. But there simply isn’t any quick, magical solution. The policy Howard has just announced is worse, more racist and more wildly impractical and misconceived than anything Pauline Hanson ever spouted. Kevin Rudd’s meek, kneejerk endorsement of it is almost as disgusting, and marks him unfit to lead Australia. At least Howard has the guts to announce policies of his own, however repugnant and ill-considered. - Ken Parish

There is a problem.

This plan from the government is action.

Thus we have to support it?

Maybe it’s my background in sociology, but when I look at the social problems, I immediately thinkt hat the key to addressing them is attacking the root causes of these problems.

In responce to atg, I can’t offer a prescription for the problems in aboriginal communities. The solutions need to come from within these communities, and the best the government or any outsider can do is support indigenous solutions.

The government’s plan is to do the complete opposite, they intend to completely remove control over the situation from indigenous people.

Comment from Kieran
Time: June 22, 2007, 12:17 pm

ok, in responce to Iain, I’ll try and keep this quick.

1. There is a problem. The problem isn’t that “all these damn blacks are kiddie fiddlers and drunks”.

The problem is the logical consequence of invasion and genocide.

This government has made it clear that there is no future as an aboriginal in this country, there is only a future in becoming white.

There is no effort to support the economic future of aboriginal communities. There is no effort to support indigenous identity, on the contrary indigenous identity is attacked. Oh so recently Mal Brough told all aboriginals to learn english.

I would argue for the opposite, treasure and maintain your language.

2. Imposing prohibition never works. All this does is make a criminal problem out of what is a medical and social problem.

It hasn’t worked in the communities that have prohibited alcohol thus far, you’ll notice in the government’s media kit talk of “rivers of grog”. “ban the alcohol” is the chant, black man can’t be trusted with it.

Total rubbish, alcohol and drug abuse is the side effect, not the cause.

As for competing rights, why no impose prohibition across the whole bloody country? Alcohol related crime is a serious problem in the predominantly white community of Albury Wodonga, why doesn’t the government force us all to stop drinking?!

3. Food stamps. There you go again, black people are dysfunctional. Black man can’t be trusted, gotta tell him what to do.

Lovely. I have two key objections.

Food stamps disempower the person on welfare. Control over what financial resources you do have is key to personal dignity, identity, and ultimately welfare. Removing personal control, disempowering the individual, only exacerbates the problems associated with so-called welfare dependance. It removes the course to a solution from the individual.

My further objection is to the obvious racism of targetting black communities with measures we would NEVER consider, under any circumstances, imposing on the rest of the community.

4. Indolence and indulgence. Wow, that’s how you see black communities.

Again, problem, people aren’t going to school. The solution isn’t to force them, it’s to look at why people aren’t getting what they want out of the education system and change it to meet their needs.

wow.

5. Policing. Other than attacking my supposed socialist fantasies, you don’t actually have anything to say on this one.

Yes, people have a right to security. But no, policing doesn’t “solve” crime. Again, care to take a bet on the likely increase in deaths in custody?

6. Rubbish. i feel like I’m beating a dead horse here, but authoritarian solutions addressing the symptom do not attack the underlying cause.

7. Housing. Market based rents and normal tenancy arrangements. That doesn’t mean “don’t trash your house”, it means no more free housing, no more communal living.

It’s the imposition of our standards on black communities. It’s a gross attack on indigenous cultural practice in these communities. It doesn’t even address a problem, it’s just designed to wedge the rest of the community.

What it actually says is that the solution to problems in black communities is: “be more white”.

8. Havens for kiddie fiddlers and drunks, that’s how you see black communities. Black Australians are evil. Whatever.

Its a reduction in the communities control over their own affairs. It’s disempowerment, it’s a step away from the solutions to these problems.

Well, that wasn’t quick. What can I say, I think you’re wrong, I think you miss the point, I think you denigrate aboriginal communities, i think promoting government control in this fashion indicates that you believe black Australians no longer have the same rights to control their own lives that white Australians do.

Comment from fred
Time: June 22, 2007, 12:24 pm

Thanks Kieran for the explanation and the original post and follow up.
When I first heard of this racism by Howard and co. I was apalled and flabbergasted and your post was a drink in a dry place.
Today’s Advertiser has “Save the children” as its headline.
What a sick joke.
One point I would like to emphasise and which appears to have been missed is that this racism is not only an attack on the indigenous people but on all the children in Australia who are sexually abused.
Because sexual abuse is not confined to welfare recipients, nor the indigenous nor those who live with alcoholics.
It exists across the entire spectrum of Australian society, the rich the poor the urban and rural, all ethnic groups…every sector of our society.
And this racism ignores that.
“Look over there! A drunken Aboriginal abusing a child. Don’t look here in our churches, or in Toorak, or…..anywhere else.”
Remember the Hollingsworth controversy, cover up in the church, and Howard’s defence?
Save the children? Hah!
Remember the children in the refugee camps?
Institutionalised government policy of child abuse.
Save the children?
Hah!
The more I think about how Howard has once again demonised and scapegoated a group of people for selfish political gain the more disgusted I get.

Yet another day of shame for for Australia not only with respect to the racism but also the denial of the widespread sexual abuse, and domestic violence, that permeates our society.

Comment from craigy
Time: June 22, 2007, 12:33 pm

Iain Halls so called ‘fisk’ above belies his real opinion that all of this is due to Aboriginal culture.

In his racist rants at his appalling blog, he jumps on any opportunity to blame Indigenous culture for the dysfunction in indigenous communities, cheered on by his sick, violent mate KG who thinks we should destroy the whole middle east with nuclear weapons.
Many people pointed out to him that there is dysfunction in white communities, and that this doesn’t make the whole culture ‘toxic’ (his word). Still he follows Andrew Bolts lead and claims that Indigenous culture is the problem and that lefties are somehow caught up in the ‘myth’ of the nobel savage.

That fact that I work with Indigenous people and disputed his racist rants with first hand experience of the positive quality’s of Indigenous culture and most Aboriginal and TI people, eventually got me banned from his site.

Not banned completely but he started to change words in my posts so he didn’t look stupid. He regularly changes his posts when he realises he has made a stupid mistake.

Anyway, people have asked what can be done.

Well banning Alcohol from some communities has worked. The problem with this proposal is that it’s being imposed. Self esteem problems are at the heart of most dysfunction, and when Indigenous people choose to remove Alcohol themselves, this remains intact. Force it on people and you make the problem worse as Kieran has pointed out. The people with low self esteem in dysfunctional families will just move to somewhere they can buy grog and the problems will continue.

We need to start by saying sorry, it’s not your fault, you are good people, we respect your culture, and we acknowledge you as equals to us.

Then the things that Noel Person and others have been suggesting need to be implemented in a way that will give indigenous people ownership of the problems and the solutions.

Funny how the rightists bleat on about Government intervention and nanny states, but support imposing rules on some people just because of the colour of their skin.

Would they support an alcoholic white mother being forced to move to a dry area to live? No. We provide services and support to try and lift them out of their situation. White people don’t put up with being told that the dysfunction is due to our ‘toxic’ culture.

As Richard Franklin said yesterday, we still live in a society where a black person with a University degree still has the change put on the counter rather than in his hand, and still gets called a boong by complete strangers.

We have a long way to go, and no quick fix by Howard in an effort to win Government is going to change problems that go back to European settlement.

Comment from Iain Hall
Time: June 22, 2007, 5:22 pm

Kieran I will answer your points in turn

1. There is a problem. The problem isn’t that “all these damn blacks are kiddie fiddlers and drunks”.

The problem is the logical consequence of invasion and genocide.

This government has made it clear that there is no future as an aboriginal in this country, there is only a future in becoming white.

There is no effort to support the economic future of aboriginal communities. There is no effort to support indigenous identity, on the contrary indigenous identity is attacked. Oh so recently Mal Brough told all aboriginals to learn English.

I would argue for the opposite, treasure and maintain your language.

I have had a number of debates about the teaching of English in indigenous communities and while I am happy to admit that there is real cultural value for the retention of indigenous language, the reality is that any indigenous person who does not have a functional command of English is at a great disadvantage when ever they choose to venture in to the wider community. Putting the question of language to one side the level of attendance at schools by indigenous children from the communities in question is truly woeful. And for any improvement in the lot of indigenous children attending school on a regular basis is essential.

Sorry Kieran but I think that at this juncture the cause you cite is a moot point and I think rather irrelevant to the current situation.

2. Imposing prohibition never works. All this does is make a criminal problem out of what is a medical and social problem.

It hasn’t worked in the communities that have prohibited alcohol thus far, you’ll notice in the government’s media kit talk of “rivers of grog”. “ban the alcohol” is the chant, black man can’t be trusted with it.

Total rubbish, alcohol and drug abuse is the side effect, not the cause.

As for competing rights, why no impose prohibition across the whole bloody country? Alcohol related crime is a serious problem in the predominantly white community of Albury Wodonga, why doesn’t the government force us all to stop drinking?!

Is there just a bit of Hyperbole coming from you on this one Kieran? Prohibition can clearly work in these communities and many of the women there have been calling for just such action for years. Don’t you get that it? The choice is between the needs of children and women and the drunks. I am for all intents a teetotaller but that does not mean that I automatically disapprove of any one having a drink but I do disapprove of drink and drugs being a higher priority on the shopping list than food and clothing for the kids ,strangely so do many women form the communities in question.

3. Food stamps. There you go again, black people are dysfunctional. Black man can’t be trusted, gotta tell him what to do.

Lovely. I have two key objections.

Food stamps disempower the person on welfare. Control over what financial resources you do have is key to personal dignity, identity, and ultimately welfare. Removing personal control, disempowering the individual, only exacerbates the problems associated with so-called welfare dependence. It removes the course to a solution from the individual.

My further objection is to the obvious racism of targeting black communities with measures we would NEVER consider, under any circumstances, imposing on the rest of the community.

It is very easy to use the term food stamps with derision, as you do here but the dysfunction of the communities in question can not be denied. Have you read the report on abuse in the Northern territory? I have and it is not for anyone with a weak stomach. There communities are being targeted not because their residents are black but because of the abuse and violence. Were there “white’ communities as dysfunctional I would be right up there demanding the same sweeping response. As would the government.

4. Indolence and indulgence. Wow, that’s how you see black communities.

Again, problem, people aren’t going to school. The solution isn’t to force them, it’s to look at why people aren’t getting what they want out of the education system and change it to meet their needs.

wow.

No I do not se all black communities like that at all, but as you are a man with out school age children I’ll let you into a secret, parents have to ensure that our children go to school and we do that by insisting that they do so. I have never asked my kids if they feel like going I get them up and feed dress and groom them and make sure that they get to school. It is what parents do. Sadly too many parents in indigenous communities fail miserably when it comes to sending the kids to school.

5. Policing. Other than attacking my supposed socialist fantasies, you don’t actually have anything to say on this one.

Yes, people have a right to security. But no, policing doesn’t “solve” crime. Again, care to take a bet on the likely increase in deaths in custody?

The laws exist to protect the people and if they are broken then there has to be consequences. As for ‘deaths in custody’ some times I think this issue is used as some sort of emotional blackmail and as much as I hope that this is not the case I also think that it should not deter the police prosecuting any one who has been responsible for abusing children.

6. Rubbish. I feel like I’m beating a dead horse here, but authoritarian solutions addressing the symptom do not attack the underlying cause.

There is a time for using strict policing and when the situation is as dire as it is at present the time is right.

7. Housing. Market based rents and normal tenancy arrangements. That doesn’t mean “don’t trash your house”, it means no more free housing, no more communal living.

It’s the imposition of our standards on black communities. It’s a gross attack on indigenous cultural practice in these communities. It doesn’t even address a problem, it’s just designed to wedge the rest of the community.

What it actually says is that the solution to problems in black communities is: “be more white”.

Did I say anything about rent scales? I have been a tenant and I have been a landlord so I have seen both sides of the renting coin it is not about how people want to live but about people not destroying the very things that they need for a better future.

8. Havens for kiddie fiddlers and drunks, that’s how you see black communities. Black Australians are evil. Whatever.

Its a reduction in the communities control over their own affairs. It’s disempowerment, it’s a step away from the solutions to these problems.

Well, that wasn’t quick. What can I say, I think you’re wrong, I think you miss the point, I think you denigrate aboriginal communities, i think promoting government control in this fashion indicates that you believe black Australians no longer have the same rights to control their own lives that white Australians do.

I really want this effort by the government to succeed so that these communities can be functional places where the Children can grow up without being abused or have their brain’s fried by petrol or grog. But the things I am saying are not substantially different from what has been said by Noel Pearson. I have the greatest respect for indigenous culture but that does not mean that any thing don by an indigenous person is any less worthy of scrutiny than the same act committed by a white person. You position implicitly suggests other wise.

Now to Craigy

Comment from Craigy
Time: June 22, 2007, 12:33 pm

Iain Halls so called ‘fisk’ above belies his real opinion that all of this is due to Aboriginal culture.

Sorry to disappoint you Craigy but this is not my position at all.

In his racist rants at his appalling blog, he jumps on any opportunity to blame Indigenous culture for the dysfunction in indigenous communities, cheered on by his sick, violent mate KG who thinks we should destroy the whole middle east with nuclear weapons.
Many people pointed out to him that there is dysfunction in white communities, and that this doesn’t make the whole culture ‘toxic’ (his word). Still he follows Andrew Bolts lead and claims that Indigenous culture is the problem and that lefties are somehow caught up in the ‘myth’ of the noble savage.

Your argument is all over the place here Craigy and you misrepresent my position and that of KG who has much more first hand experience in the sort of communities that either you or I.

That fact that I work with Indigenous people and disputed his racist rants with first hand experience of the positive quality’s of Indigenous culture and most Aboriginal and TI people, eventually got me banned from his site.

Not banned completely but he started to change words in my posts so he didn’t look stupid. He regularly changes his posts when he realises he has made a stupid mistake.

Craigy I edited one comment of yours that was personally abusive of me. And it was not the first time that you had done it either, I don’t hear you whining about the commenting policy at other blogs where even more savage editing is common.

Anyway, people have asked what can be done.

Well banning Alcohol from some communities has worked. The problem with this proposal is that it’s being imposed. Self esteem problems are at the heart of most dysfunction, and when Indigenous people choose to remove Alcohol themselves, this remains intact. Force it on people and you make the problem worse as Kieran has pointed out. The people with low self esteem in dysfunctional families will just move to somewhere they can buy grog and the problems will continue.

Nice in theory but would you ask an unconscious person to revive themselves? There comes a point when you just have to act and worry about the niceties later. And as the ban on grog is going to be territory wide I think that it will be just a bit too far to go to get a drink.

We need to start by saying sorry, it’s not your fault, you are good people, we respect your culture, and we acknowledge you as equals to us.

The time for empty symbolism has come and gone and proved to be a total failure.

Then the things that Noel Person and others have been suggesting need to be implemented in a way that will give indigenous people ownership of the problems and the solutions.

The fact that these ideas broadly follow the lead from Noel Pearson should mean that the result will be to a large extent owned by the people.

Funny how the rightists bleat on about Government intervention and nanny states, but support imposing rules on some people just because of the colour of their skin.

Would they support an alcoholic white mother being forced to move to a dry area to live? No. We provide services and support to try and lift them out of their situation. White people don’t put up with being told that the dysfunction is due to our ‘toxic’ culture.

Sadder is how the left, like you Craigy, bleat on endlessly about the past as if the present or the future are not important. As for your hypothetical white alcoholic mother we may not force her to move to a dry community but neither would we allow her to destroy the lives of her children because of “political correctness” and myths of children being taken for racist reasons.

As Richard Franklin said yesterday, we still live in a society where a black person with a University degree still has the change put on the counter rather than in his hand, and still gets called a boong by complete strangers.

We have a long way to go, and no quick fix by Howard in an effort to win Government is going to change problems that go back to European settlement.

Racist rubbish Craigy This action by the government is not about buying office at the next election it is about addressing a pressing problem that affects indigenous people now.

Comment from MorningDude
Time: June 22, 2007, 7:01 pm

As some of the abuse against Aboriginal children was carried out by white men in nearby industrial communities (mining camps for example), why isn’t John Howard banning all alcohol and pornography from those areas?

Comment from Verity
Time: June 22, 2007, 7:11 pm

The actual report which has sparked all these measures itself advocates very different responses. It also outlines the type of reaction which would be least useful and most damaging- exactly the reaction the government has made.

I would hope that there is a positive to this, that in response to Howard’s plans someone (please, Mr Rudd, please) will counter it with some reforms which will actually work and not be so entirely insulting, and then get elected. It’s an issue we need to be doing something about, but not this.

Comment from MorningDude
Time: June 22, 2007, 7:22 pm

I have just been informed that Howard has stated that alcohol and pornography will be banned from all industrial sites that impact on Aboriginal areas. I am looking forward to hearing of the first raids by the AFP on these camps and the seizure of computers in pursuit of pornography.

Comment from Kate
Time: June 23, 2007, 1:44 am

The ‘problem’ of Aboriginal community lawlessness is not a result of Indigenous control of communities, it’s about standard police responses.

The police just don’t respond to black complainants the way they do white ones, especially women and children.

Black women and children don’t have the protection of law that white women and children enjoy, even in the Territory.

I can have my abusive drunk partner/uncle/cousin/brother/father/friend out of my house with one phone call to the police. They will attend, they will take the offending male into custody. They will charge him with assault if he has assaulted anyone. They will provide him with access numbers for alcohol and drug rehab, counselling and information on anger management. And they will get me support to file a restraining order or escape the situation immediately via the refuge network.

Finally, the police will contact the local domestic violence outreach service and both of us will be contacted separately by this agency to see if we need further support.

A black woman can’t get the police to come and take away a violent drunken male. She gets told to put up and shut up, the police have important things to do.

My claims of rape will be taken seriously. I can expect to be treated with respect by both the police and the medical examiner. I can expect to be attended by officers specially trained to deal with victims of abuse. I will be supported throughout the trial. I will have access to financial compensation as a victim of crime.

A black woman will be told to go wash herself in the river because she stinks.

I lived in Darwin during the mid 90’s and worked in the education system. What John Howard is proposing, although it sounds reasonable almost to some southern ears, is the total dislocation of lifestyle.

I worked in Palmerston at one stage, with Aboriginal kids who came to school for about 2/3 of the school year. They could only come for 2/3 of the year because the school year begins during the Wet when they are still living inland. They come in as the Dry begins and outdoor living in the Darwin area is pleasant again. So they miss anything on the mainstream calendar before about Easter time.

They have higher rates of truancy. What do you expect? They have missed a term before they start, they are continuously playing catch up and there is no telling whether Dad will demand their presence at Daly River in the middle of the exam period.

They are growing up with one foot in each culture and they are struggling in both. It’s messy, but I can’t see how cutting off Mum’s check is going to make it better for these kids.

We conceive of Aboriginal communities as fixed and continuous, the way mainstream communities are structured, but in miniature and all the residents are black. It’s a myth, it doesn’t exist.

Community property is necessary for people who live a seasonal migratory lifestyle. Each family can’t afford a residence for their nuclear family at each of the locations in which they live. It would be absurd, but that is what would be be necessary.

Many of my students lived in the town camps. What else are they going to do? It’s not like anyone is going to rent a traditional family a house or flat to live in for 6 months maybe.

I wont glorify the camps, the ones I visited were putrid places, where I wouldn’t be prepared to leave a dog. But at least the camps have water, toilets and generally somewhere safe to swim. If your living in the long grass you often have to share your water source with salt water crocs.

I don’t understand how the army or Victoria police are going to make living in the communities or camps better, unless we are going to put them on litter patrol and painting details.

But then I suppose the thing Howard and many other non indigenous Australians really want is for them to stop moving round and being black fellas and settle down and live in one spot and bath regular and do a fair day’s labour for a fair day’s pay yadda yadda yadda like decent folks do down south.

I’d say this rates amongst the most vile and disgusting things to come out of an Australian government (of any colour) for many, many years.

Comment from craigy
Time: June 23, 2007, 10:58 am

Iain Hall, you are an unbelievable liar. How do you look your self in the mirror mate.

You started changing my comments when you were losing the argument, the abuse you support comes from your sick friends and you cheer them on like your heroes Bolt and Blair.

Trying to pretend you are now a moderate doesn’t fool anyone.

Your whining comment at your own blog that LP was moderating your comments is so typically hypocritical of you. They moderate you because of your abuse at those you think are ‘lefty scum’. YOU EDIT OTHER PEOPLES COMMENTS, that is dishonest, but you justify it because we are only ‘lefties’ in your blinkered eyes. If my comments were truly abusive, like your friends are, you could just not post them.

You and I have had the argument on indigenous dysfunction on a number of occasions with KG trying to point out he’s some kind of expert. You and your expert went on and on about the myth of the ‘noble savage’, that Australian Indigenous culture is ‘toxic’, and that they should forget their failed culture and embrace our superior white culture.

To pretend this isn’t your position is a blatant lie, and you can’t edit the comments here like you do at your shithole blog.

Those who read your comments above can see your attempts to hide your racism but you slip up with comments like these;

“and myths of children being taken for racist reasons

Here you see Iain parroting Bolt as usual; he doesn’t believe the huge amount of evidence collected on the ‘Stolen Generation’. I’m sure if he came to Melbourne and I introduced him to people taken for racist reasons, like singer Kutcha Edwards, he would try and tell him it’s all a Myth.

Anyway, go back to your love in with KG on your own blog and talk amongst yourselves. Even though I am now working full time with local indigenous Australians I’m sure his few months in a community makes him your Guru and you won’t listen to me because I’m just a lefty scum.

To not see this as an attempt by Howard to wedge his way back to power is something only an ideologue could see. That is you and your violent, racist, ideologues at CR, AWH, Blair and Bolt.

Comment from Iain Hall
Time: June 23, 2007, 3:17 pm

Craigy
I edited ONE WORD out of this comment because it was a gratuitous insult.
This

And suffer Iains editing and manipulation…no thanks. Hypocrite!

to this

And suffer Iains editing and manipulation…no thanks!

I have not edited any of your other comments
As for loosing the argument, utter bollocks.
Having checked by comment notifications I see that You were moved you onto my moderation list after you refused to stop haranguing me about moderating some one else (Mondo rock) .
But that is bye the bye.
To get to the substantive point of your post You seem to think that your experience of remote indigenous communities is greater than Keith’s, well I don’t have either of your CV’s in front of me but from his previous comments I gather that Keith has YEARS of experience living in some of the most remote communities which easily trumps your experience with urban indigenes.
But I don’t see any point in getting into a pissing competition here. I write about this issue because I care about children and it sickens me to the core when I hear about them being abused. It is as simple as that. If it makes you feel better to accuse me of racism for doing so there is nothing that I can do to stop you here, as you say and frankly I don’t value your opinion of me enough to be too concerned. It does not undermine my argument and I refer you to the piece by Noel Pearson in today’s OZ that I link to in this mornings blog post at my Blog . Now for all intents and purposes he is saying the same thing that I am; does that make him a racist too?

Comment from craigy
Time: June 23, 2007, 5:33 pm

Iain, why do you think I made the comment above? It was because you changed two of my earlier posts when you were losing the argument. Also, my comment is mild and not what I would call abusive, if you consider this from your friend KG today at another blog;

“you slimy little piece of snot.”

And why do you complain just yesterday, about being moderated by LP while changing other people’s comments to suit yourself?

Again you’re a hypocrite.

BTW I agree with Noel Pearson, but he is not the rep for everyone, especially the people in the NT. As said by the people themselves, if they don’t include those most affected in this process it just won’t work. We need to listen to and include them to have any chance of progress.

Your racism stems from your often expressed opinion that indigenous culture is ‘toxic’ and should be abandoned in favour of the superior white culture, your denial of the pain caused by the removal of children for racist reasons, and your friends who display even more violent ideas about other races.

Comment from Iain Hall
Time: June 23, 2007, 6:05 pm

Craigy
You claim that I have edited two of your previous comments, tell me which ones. I may have disallowed one or two but that is not editing is it? Anyway I keep all email notifications on file so you cite the particular comments and I will check. Because strange as it may seem to you I do not remember every one of the thousands of comments posted to my blog.
With regard to my commenting at LP I felt that I was unfairly treated and I complained to the blog owner and my comment has duly been allowed. That option has always been open to you with regard to my moderation of your own comments Craigy. You seemed to go from being quite reasonable to taunting troll mode in the blink of an eye and my patience is rather limited when it comes to such behaviour these days.
What others are prepared to accept as comments is really not down to me unless you want to claim that I have supernatural powers. So some one else lets Keith use colourful language? Well Keith is respectful of the decorum that I prefer at my blog but you were not. Which is why your comments are moderated and he can post freely.
Like a lot of people who follow the leftist faith you are very keen to take words and phrases out of context and use that as a stick to beat you political opposites.
I have never said that indigenous culture, on a meta level is “Toxic” in fact I have jumped through rhetorical hoops to ensure that any criticism that I may have made of specific instances of unacceptable behaviour, by ingenious individuals was focused on the specific and not the general. I have never said that indigenous cultured should be abandoned nor have I claimed that white culture is superior.
I invite you to cite where you claim that I have. By email if you prefer because this is getting rather of topic here.
Cheers
Iain

Comment from Kate
Time: June 24, 2007, 2:51 am

Craigy, if you feed a troll, just like a stray dog, he never wants to leave you

Comment from tovorinok
Time: July 5, 2007, 4:07 pm

Hello

Great book. I just want to say what a fantastic thing you are doing! Good luck!

G’night

Comment from BMSprint
Time: September 17, 2007, 3:05 pm

How can they ban X-rated material? Is this on private computers, and do Aboriginals even have access to private computers?

I was under the impression Australia was neither Vatican City nor Saudi Arabia.

Comment from Kieran
Time: September 17, 2007, 3:58 pm

X rated material is illegal in every state and territory with the exception of the capital territory. I agree, it’s prudish, informed adults should have the right to view anything they bloody well want too. But we have a government that would happily subject television to government censorship, and recently proposed (although they backed down) requiring all websites to have a G, PG, M or MA rating.

Comment from BMSprint
Time: September 17, 2007, 9:36 pm

What?

Is there no freedom of speech, answer me that.

Comment from Kieran
Time: September 17, 2007, 11:16 pm

Define freedom of speech?

The Australian constitution does not carry an explicit garuntee of free expression. Nor do we have an act of parliament to that effect. Some states and territories have enacted legislative bills of rights, but they’re pretty weak documents.

But what’s a right anyway? It’s something you claim and defend as a society. And a freedom to watch porn is not something that Australians seem prepared to defend for aboriginal peoples. (they’re hypocrites of course, every white Australian orders all the porn they need from the ACT, assuming they don’t just go online!)

Comment from BMSprint
Time: September 18, 2007, 1:25 pm

Heh.

So is Playboy legal?

Comment from Kieran
Time: September 18, 2007, 1:56 pm

Playboy is far from X rated.

Comment from BMSprint
Time: September 18, 2007, 3:55 pm

Heh. It still seems to suggest they are banning it.

It seems dumb to me, that crap probably helps keep the birth rate from busting… duh.

Comment from Jody
Time: October 3, 2007, 5:27 pm

I spent some time in the NT a couple of years back, and it will come as no surprise, that a lot of the Indigenous communities up there were in a bad way. In fact, it should come as no surprise that there have been significant social problems in many Indigenous communities for generations now. To suddenly declare a state of emergency is clearly kneejerk to a situation that has arisen over decades if not centuries.
Yes, alcohol abuse is a serious problem, just as it is in many non indigenous communities. Prohibition on the other hand was a failed social experiment under which criminal enterprise proliferated.
It is worth remembering that Albert Namatjira was given special dispensation to purchase alcohol (which at the time was prohibited to all Indigenous persons) and served jail time for buying it on behalf of his fellow community members.
Such legislation was an outrage then, and remains so now. Indigenous Australians, while granted citizenship shamefully recently are indeed just that, Australian citizens.
The Howard Government can’t be accused of respecting the rights of any Australian citizens, however when it comes to Indigenous Australians, they are leading the charge.
There will be no “quick fix” solution to the social problems of Indigenous communities but an imposed rather than collaborative approach is clearly a step backwards.
Of course it would be great to see some strong community leadership on a range of Indigenous issues, however after so many decades of social disruption, it is a bit of an ask. Even more so since the demise of ATSIC.
I would suggest that fostering and supporting this kind of leadership might be a good start to fixing some of the problems in Indigenous communities.
I met a man in the NT (I won’t say his name, he has passed away and it is disrespectful to do so), he was the only survivor of the massacre of his entire community, he was less than a year old and survived, because his mother managed to hide him under a bush before being gunned down.
Despite this, I never got one inkling that he harboured any resentment to me based on the colour of my skin.
Such a man is inspirational, and borders on superhuman but his story is more than that, it is a reminder of the kinds of attrocities committed agaist Indigenous people in this country.
It is also a reminder as to why Indigenous Australians are justifiably suspicious of interventions by white Australians, and why we need to tread carefully and respectfully if there is to be any hope of salvaging a workable relationship between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians.